THSCC in the N&O

Wes Eargle · **Joined:** Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:47 am **Posts:** 3683

http://www.xtrememeasures.org/Gallery/pages/a6_jpg.htm

I'll pass on instructing in that.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:14 pm

tarheel bmwcca is pushing the same school. tip drills & rolling in the mud is what makes a good football team. tipping in an suv and running off the road rolling in will kill a teenager. there are so many assholes out on the road right now one must ask, do we really need to foster another generation of the same?

kids die in car crashes. it has always been that way and it hasn't been that long since the four kids died on I 540 up by Leesville Rd.

no, THSCC is not drivers ed., the schools have drivers ed., we are enthusiasts and as such can afford to act like we give a damn about the community and possibly offer a service.

we do not have to initiate the service, apparently there is one already that uses Sanford. but, could we not swap something maybe for some use of the facility? i personally would do better with logistics than actual in car tutelage, but i am sure we could garner an instructor or two among the membership.

please pardon my soap box approach, but my kid is nearing the age where i feel she needs to learn to drive. and while she is too young legally, she can almost reach the pedals and see over the dashboard. which by my estimate is better suited than the paramaters set forth by the state. stupidity kills more people than speed. lack of education is only one cause of stupidity. any parent that puts their kid in a sports car should at least consider what that car is capable of in the hands of an experienced driver and then think what some testoterone filled teenager might think about trying. i feel bad for the parents of these kids. i only hope i can protect my own from such tragedy.

so yes, if we get dumbass over -protective soccer moms calling and e-mailing us because of Chuck's statement, wanting THSCC to train their kids to drive, we should tell them exactly what we think about stupid people and stupid drivers. stupidity is not something i have gained since joining this group. why can't we tell joe & jane suburbanite to slow the f*** down and then teach their kids the same manners on the highways? short of the beltline & I40 the average speed limit in this county is between 35 & 45 mph and yet i have assholes rolling thru my 25 MPH supdivision at 45mph plus with kids and dogs and bicycles and joggers all around. if you read about me going postal on some sorry sob you will know the circumstances.

besides, some of these reformed, rabbitt running down, minivan racing psychopathic cellphone juggling wombs of society might just bring us a new member or two.

steve

Chuck Frank · **Posted:** Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:34 am

Never once in my conversations with the reporter did I say Thscc or AX teaches people to drive, I said that by AXing your learn precision car control, looking ahead, being aware of your surroundings, what happens in a loss of control situation and how that can happen at even low speeds, and how the lack of that info causes drivers to do the wrong reactions in emergency situations, as well as stating that an AXer knows better than to try to take a curve at 100MPH on street tires because he knows the consequences. I also promoted Thscc's other community services such as supporting JV foundation, EV challenge, FSAE and how our events are serious competitions, not just a bunch of goofballs squealing tires around a parkinglot and trying to run over cones.
He said he knew of tarheel, had gone to a track event with some members years ago and wanted to come out to an AX to do a story on the club and it's activities. I offered to take him on a run with me and enter him in the event so he could experience the differences between a trained and untrained driver.
Tell me now if the officers do NOT want a reporter to possibly show up this weekend or at any other event so he doesn't waste a 4 hr drive.
Just maybe if people were made aware of what we do do there would be a lot less confusion and more acceptance of AX as a serious and worthwhile sport and just might let people interested in participating know we exist... ???

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:57 am

Chuck Frank wrote:

Just maybe if people were made aware of what we do do there would be a lot less confusion and more acceptance of AX as a serious and worthwhile sport and just might let people interested in participating know we exist... ???

It is my opinion that using the death of four teens in a car accident to publicize the club is not only in epically poor taste but also making an association that we do not want. Teen high-speed highway deaths and the name of this club should not be put together no matter what the reasoning. THSCC is focused on racing and not safety. Considering the circumstances, I do not think that the general public will take the time to understand that there can be a positive link between the two and will instead focus on the more readily apparent negative one. I think most people believe that people die because of racing and trying to portray the club's events as something that can prevent that, no matter how true well all know it to be, will not work. One reporter coming to an event is not going to change that perception.

I agree with you that the club does a number of positive things that do not get the attention they deserve and perhaps the reporter you know can help change this. I just do not believe that the deaths of these teens is the correct opportunity for the club to use to make its debut into greater public awareness.

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:15 am

Personally, I do not see any correlation between AX and improving every day driving. AX is in a controlled environment, with a predefined course, no other cars involved, purposefully designed so there are no obstacles to hit. The looking ahead thing is great on the AX course, but on the street you had better be looking two cars in front and watching the sides equally as much.

Consider most people only make 40 runs a year, I do not see how that helps in car control. Especially since there are not that many little cones out on the pubic highway.

Now HPDE is a different story. Even there, I feel safer than driving the PA Turnpike.... I learned more car control and driving tips at my first HPDE than 6 years of AX'ing. Hell, in AX we turn our rearview mirrors around and block the side view mirrors!

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:43 am

Don't get offended Chuck. I'm just saying that you need to realize (if you don't already) that there can be a downside to such media attention. Sure *we* all know the good things that AX can teach a driver, but if a teenager leaves with these good skills and uses them in a bad way...we could be labeled guilty by association.

I agree that a teen learning car control in a safe venue like ours can be a very good thing. The skills learned can be invaluable as we all know. The problem is that if we are able to teach 49 teens these skills and just one misuses them and something bad happens, again his or her association with us would put us in a bad light. The same could be said for our non-teens, but since a thirty year old in fatal crash isn't as dramatic to the media, it wouldn't be a hot topic like the other would be.

Perhaps a *complete* story (not just a sound-bite if you will) would shed what we do in a positive light. However I doubt our charitable contributions and responsible manner of doing things would overshadow something more newsworthy (read: dramatic) like a teens in a fatal crash with parents up in arms. I could be wrong, and hope that I am.

I'm not claiming to be all knowing on what is good or bad for the club. As an officer who wants to see the club survive another 40+ years, I'm just stating my concerns as such.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:51 am

Rich Anderson wrote:

Considering the circumstances, I do not think that the general public will take the time to understand that there can be a positive link between the two and will instead focus on the more readily apparent negative one.

Well said. Give the press 2,000,114 positive things and just one negative and guess which will make print? Dramatic things make for better news, not responsible people doing safe things in a parking lot.

Carl Fisher · **Posted:** Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:59 am

Rich Anderson wrote:

I just do not believe that the deaths of these teens is the correct opportunity for the club to use to make its debut into greater public awareness.

I don't think that's what Chuck's talking about anymore. Now he's saying that this reporter would like to come out and attend an autocross, presumably with intent to write a story on the sport, and perhaps also our club. Separate story. Reporters have to keep coming up with ideas for stories and then write them- that's their job.

Since it is the same reporter, though, and he did get the contact from Chuck through the Wakefield teen tragedy, it'd probably be wise for club officers to decide in advance what (if any) linkage we'd like him to make between safe driving and autocross, and then insist that the report limit his implications to what the officers have agreed.

Frankly, I would not expect there to be much of an effect from such a story if it is not being linked to the Wakefield tragedy. I think our club and our sport has been the subject of several newspaper articles over the years, and nothing serious has come of them, to my knowledge.

Michael Westerfield · **Posted:** Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:02 pm

Carl Fisher wrote:

Reporters have to keep coming up with ideas for stories and then write them- that's their job.

Someone needs to introduce him to Randy then. I would love to read about the love buzzard in the N&O. or maybe 101 uses of a spork?

Chuck Frank · **Posted:** Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:05 pm

I'm not offended, like I said I didn't get started with this reporter as a plug for tarheel, I'd just like an official word from those in charge as to yeh or nay rather than opinions so I can pass it on. I just though getting the club's and the sport in front of the public in a positive manner that it might give us credibility thereby grease the wheels a little when we go to approach property owners for use of sites. I'm not an officer, it's y'alls call.

Patrice Bousquet · **Posted:** Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:09 pm

I have to disagree with you Jim. In autocross you learn some car controls and how your car reacts in a particular situation. Many gates in slalom are set to look like collision avoidance. And the speeds in these gates, even if relatively slow, are similar to the speed that you go on the road mainly in rush hour traffic. So instead of smashing the car in front of you, you might see an opening in the traffic and used it to avoid an accident. That happened to me before. HPDE will help you with the higher speed part. So I will say that doing both will really help you with car control. I will always remember the accident I avoided a few years ago in Germany. It was at night on the Autobahn. Traffic was pretty light. I was on the left lane doing at least 90mph. I saw some brake light coming on ahead, I lift off, just as a precaution and let to speed come down a little, a few seconds after I started to see some debris on the road, I started to slowly brake, suddenly I saw a car sideways blocking the entire left lane with no light, nothing, At that point I was still probably going around 70, too late to brake so I move the car to the middle lane since it was open at that point avoiding the car. The guy that was riding with me was sure that was it, he said that he will have never reacted like that. I’m sure all the skill I learn over the year in AX and HPDE save me that one.

Patrice

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:23 pm

Carl Fisher wrote:

...it'd probably be wise for club officers to decide in advance what (if any) linkage we'd like him to make between safe driving and autocross, and then insist that the report limit his implications to what the officers have agreed.

Not even Uncle Sam can tell a reporter what to write or not to write. If we (THSCC) get full editing rights (yeah right) then we may as well write our own story and send it in.

Like you said, unless the article is linked to those teen deaths, it won't get any attention. No drama = no story. Next!

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:27 pm

A quick search found this from the California DMV (pretty much sttes what most of already know)

Quote:

Teenage Driver Crash Risk Factors
The traffic accident rates for 16- to 19-year old drivers are higher than those for any other age group. What causes teenage drivers to be such risky drivers? The following is a list of their primary risk factors.

Poor hazard detection
The ability to detect hazards in the driving environment depends upon perceptual and information-gathering skills and involves properly identifying stimuli as potential threats. It takes time for young novice drivers to acquire this ability.

Low risk perception
Risk perception involves subjectively assessing the degree of threat posed by a hazard and one’s ability to deal with the threat. Young novice drivers tend to underestimate the crash risk in hazardous situations and overestimate their ability to avoid the threats they identify.

Risk Taking
Teenagers tend to take more risks while driving partly due to their overconfidence in their driving abilities. Young novice drivers are more likely to engage in risky behaviors like speeding, tailgating, running red lights, violating traffic signs and signals, making illegal turns, passing dangerously, and failure to yield to pedestrians.

Not wearing seat belts
Teenagers tend to wear safety belts less often than older drivers. Why?

Lack of skill
Novice teenage drivers have not yet completely mastered basic vehicle handling skills and safe-driving knowledge they need to drive safely.

Alcohol and drugs
Driving under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs is a common cause of serious crashes, especially fatal ones, involving teenage drivers. Teenagers who drink and drive are at much greater risk of serious crashes than are older drivers with equal concentrations of alcohol in their blood.

Carrying passengers
For teenagers, the risk of being in a crash increases when they transport passengers—the fatality risk of drivers aged 16–17 years is 3.6 times higher when they are driving with passengers than when they are driving alone, and the relative risk of a fatal crash increases as the number of passengers increases. Passengers who are age peers may distract the teen drivers and encourage them to take more risks, especially for young males riding with young male drivers.

Night driving
The per mile crash rate for teenaged drivers is 3 times higher after 9:00 pm during the day. This is because the task of driving at night is more difficult; they have less experience driving at night than during the day; they are more sleep deprived, and/or because teenage recreational driving, which often involves alcohol, is more likely to occur at night.

I only see one that could remotely be reduced by AX: Lack of Skill. But even that is questionable. I actually can invision AX contributing to Low Risk Perception and to Risk Taking.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:36 pm

put the reporter off untill a Sanford event. thus limiting the reporters likelihood to reference the tradegy.

i think the question here is should THSCC be involved in defensive driving training such as Extreme Measures or continue as a competition based club that excludes minors for reasons stated by Vincent and others.

maybe Tarheel BMWCCA might want to put on an extreme measures school locally were we to co sponsor. they are awfully proud off it so the likelihood might be slim.

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:38 pm

jimpastorius wrote:

I only see one that could remotely be reduced by AX: Lack of Skill. But even that is questionable. I actually can invision AX contributing to Low Risk Perception and to Risk Taking.

And that is my point. The mentality is that if you teach kids how to drive on the edge of control, they will even when they don't need to. Add in the fact that THSCC runs competitive events that aren't about safety but about going as fast as you can and I think that we would be swimming upstream on this one.

I see a real benefit to flying under the radar.

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