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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on improving the club?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:11 pm 
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Steven Carter wrote:
Donnie Barnes wrote:
So if it bothers you that others are doing that, volunteer and do it yourself, too.



Pretty sure I stated that it does not bother me. To the contrary, I am actively promoting people ride with novices in my posts on the subject. Sorry if it didn't come out clearly.


No, it was me who wasn't clear. I was using your apparent trepidation as my motivation for the comment about those who might be annoyed that folks are doing ride-alongs with novices and getting extra looks. I was simply saying you should keep doing it, it's a good thing. And I was speaking to those who might be annoyed at you, not to you directly.

Sorry that wasn't clear.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on improving the club?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:45 pm 
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I'm really impressed with the work club members are doing ranging from new sites to concentrating on novice education, and it seems to be paying off. That new site and course this past weekend was an incredible amount of fun given all the elevation and camber changes which are so rare in a parking lot like that. A modern lot would have all that flattened out not to mention all the required plantings and islands and such. That place was like a mini-Patriot course, and the way Steven, Matt and Judy laid out the course, it was really challenging and fun at the same time. It's a rare treat to have tight, technical aspects of an autocross that have low cone counts and are fun to drive.

Let me throw out a couple of thoughts to keep in the back of one's mind as everyone ponders the future of THSCC autocross and track events. Maybe some creative and resourceful further thoughts will flow with these in mind.

1) Population adjusted (aged 16 and over) miles driven peaked in June of 2005, and 83 months later we are down 8.3% from that peak and still falling. The value is back to 1995 levels at the current time. Hence I would assume this is a strong headwind for any automotive related events.


Image


2) If you look at gasoline sales per capita, it is a very ugly picture for those selling gasoline at least. Of course a large part of this would be much increased efficiency, but the huge fall off since 2005 is the economy, and it surely hasn't shown any upticking signs as of yet by this measure (blue line below):

Image



3) The Millennials (as a group) have a clearly different outlook on automobiles than us old farts and young enthusiasts. Here is a recent paper covering this topic that may be of interest to frame the future of automotive related events:

http://www.uspirg.org/sites/pirg/files/reports/Transportation%20%26%20the%20New%20Generation%20vUS_0.pdf

Some excerpts from the paper:

  • By 2011, the average American was driving 6 percent fewer miles per year than in 2004.
  • From 2001 to 2009, the average annual number of vehicle miles traveled by young people (16 to 34-year-olds) decreased from 10,300 miles to 7,900 miles per capita—a drop of 23 percent.
  • America’s young people are decreasing the amount they drive and increasing their use of transportation alternatives.
  • Young people’s transportation priorities and preferences differ from those of older generations.
  • The trend toward reduced driving among young people is likely to persist as a result of technological changes and increased legal and financial barriers to driving.
  • The trend toward reduced driving, however, has occurred even among young people who are employed and/or are doing well financially.
  • Policy-makers and the public need to be aware that America’s current transportation policy—dominated by road building—is fundamentally out-of-step with the transportation patterns and expressed preferences of growing numbers of Americans.

None of this is posted to discourage anyone -- to the contrary, having the most information possible and laying out all the potential options that can be brainstormed from everyone on the future of automotive clubs and activities is the goal.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on improving the club?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:57 pm 
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Interesting data. I recall in 1995, when I ran with the Mohud region, 60 poeple was a LARGE event. Hope we're not headed to those numbers. :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on improving the club?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:47 pm 
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Are you sure the huge fall off isn't from the price of gas? It was heading north while driven miles seemed fairly steady.

My suggestion is half-day events.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on improving the club?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:39 pm 
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While I admit anecdotal data is not very reliable, but for me personally my interest in autocross and motorsports has increased while my average annual driven miles has dropped. I live closer to work, shop online and only go out when I have multiple errands to run. I may drive 8000 miles/yr, where in ATL I drove closer to 15000. As our bumper sticker says, I am saving mya gas for the weekend! I am not convinced of a causal relationship between driven miles and interest in motorsports as a hobby.

NASCAR attendance has been falling , though. That may be more worrisome as fewer people pay to watch cars go roundyround, and therefore aren't as exposed and interested in amateur level racing. This I think supports the #3 demography contention that Chuck mentioned. SCCA would do well to quickly embrace the EV/alternative scene as soon as it matures into something less nebulous and more affordable.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on improving the club?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:30 pm 
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Steven Carter wrote:
While I admit anecdotal data is not very reliable, but for me personally my interest in autocross and motorsports has increased while my average annual driven miles has dropped. I live closer to work, shop online and only go out when I have multiple errands to run. I may drive 8000 miles/yr, where in ATL I drove closer to 15000. As our bumper sticker says, I am saving mya gas for the weekend! I am not convinced of a causal relationship between driven miles and interest in motorsports as a hobby.

NASCAR attendance has been falling , though. That may be more worrisome as fewer people pay to watch cars go roundyround, and therefore aren't as exposed and interested in amateur level racing. This I think supports the #3 demography contention that Chuck mentioned. SCCA would do well to quickly embrace the EV/alternative scene as soon as it matures into something less nebulous and more affordable.



And to think, I was about to blame Prius drivers.

I almost got run down by a Prius driver today on a narrow one way street next to a NCSU dorm. I had a pick-up on one side and a pup trailer on the other. It was my street as far as I was concerned. He seemed to chuckle a bit once I saw him. I only wish I could have been able to get back to my F350 with trailer in tow and pulled it out of hole it was in faster. To be sure I would have evened the score rather quickly.

Prius drivers are F'ing tools for the most part in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on improving the club?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:38 pm 
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steve remchak wrote:
Prius drivers are F'ing tools for the most part in my opinion.


I've noticed quite a few Prius drivers that do rabbit starts when the light turns green and outrun me in an M3, which is bound to kill their gas mileage, and isn't that the only reason to drive a Prius?

http://www.streetfire.net/video/143-top ... 180378.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on improving the club?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:41 pm 
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Michael Czeiszperger wrote:
steve remchak wrote:
Prius drivers are F'ing tools for the most part in my opinion.


I've noticed quite a few Prius drivers that do rabbit starts when the light turns green and outrun me in an M3, which is bound to kill their gas mileage, and isn't that the only reason to drive a Prius?

http://www.streetfire.net/video/143-top ... 180378.htm


Not really. Starts and stops are what cars like the Prius kick butt in terms of efficiency. And the electric stuff doesn't much care how hard you start, up to a point. It doesn't like it when it has to fight aero drag, though. So top speed bad, acceleration at low speed not a big deal.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on improving the club?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:27 pm 
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I said I answer again after I'd had some time to think about it so here goes. Looking at this post now, maybe I had too much time :D

Disclaimer – These are suggestions, not complaints. I’m not calling out anyone or in the current or past leadership, as far as I’ve seen the club officers make the best decisions they can at the time with the best interests of the club at heart. Things are the way they are for good reasons and any changes we make should be with the goal of getting better. These ideas were brainstormed by me with no feedback and are possibly the result of too much coffee and not enough sleep, some of the ideas are outside the box, way outside the box. With all that said, on to the suggestions.

Meetings.
We use the same basic agenda for the meeting that Dishman used at my first club meeting 15 years ago. To be honest it’s kind of tired, traditions are great, but how many times can you listen to new member apps before they all run together. Most of the information is already out there on the web anyway. Personally I enjoy talking to friends about cars, life, tires, etc before and after the meeting more than the actual meeting. I’d propose we make the meeting more of a social gathering and less about club business. Maybe let the officers have a bi-monthly or quarterly meeting where the actual business of running the club gets discussed. Don’t get me wrong I don’t hate the meetings the way they are but it might be time for a change.

Autocross.
The main problem I see with the autocross program is low attendance/lack of income. I’d propose a goal of averaging 100 attendees per event, but plan to be financially viable at 60 - 80. I don’t think the low attendance has anything to do with the way the club runs events, I feel that it’s just the new economic and social reality. That said it would be nice for the club to put more butts behind wheels so here are some ideas to get there.
• Run morning and afternoon sessions as separate “events” or sessions. I think it's been thrown out before but it's time for a 2nd look. This would allow folks who can’t dedicate a whole day to autocrossing to attend. What I’m proposing is an event where you show up in the morning and we would have run 2 groups, you’d run then work or the opposite and then go home. Then the afternoon folks would roll in around at 1 or 2 and do it all over again. There are lots of logistics around this so it wouldn’t be a simple change it’s just something to think about.
• Propose that the NCAC go back to an 8 event series. When I first started the NCAC was an 8 event series with a points systems similar to ours. Each of the 4 clubs in NC designated 2 of their event to be part of the NCAC. This increased attendance at 2 of each clubs events as folks travelled to other clubs to get in their 5 minimum events. It did have a lot of down sides but some positives as well.
• Allow a non-working autocross entry. This has also been proposed before but I think we should seriously consider allowing folks to run without working at our events, for a cost. I think somewhere between $60 and $100 would be the right number. This would discourage most folks from doing it but allow those who don't want to work a way to participate. In my vision of this you would have a “appointment” at say 1:00pm. You’d show up, run your runs with a minimum of 5 minutes between each one, and then go home. We would space out the appointments so there wasn't a glut of these folks at one time.
• Run some events as dual events with other clubs. Share the site costs and insurance or have us pay for one and the other club pays those expenses for the 2nd. For example we could run 2 events at Danville with Triad. They’d host one and we’d do the other. The attendance would be higher since both clubs would attend the others event, allowing for a higher ROI on the site fees and insurance. Each club would also be paying for 7 events instead of 8 in the year.
• Having said all that I’m ok with keeping attendance around the 80’s, even if the entry fee has to go up to make ends meet. The events are so much less stressful with the low numbers that I think it makes the event better for all involved, especially for those running the events. When we had 120-140 folks at every event, any little hiccup in the ops of the event and we were handing out trophies in the dark!
Other Autocross ideas.
• Reduce or combine classes creatively to generate better competition. This year the STR guys seem to be having a lot of fun competing with each other and that adds value to the time they spend at an autocross. Outside of STR, TIR, and NOV most classes seem to have only 1 or 2 entrants. While it’s always nice to get a trophy it’s kinda pointless to win a class of one. I blame the SCCA for this since they seem to keep adding classes. Honestly it seems like the number of classes has doubled since the time I stopped autocrossing seriously in 2004. I would have run in G-stock this year but there wasn’t anyone running there. For example of a creative idea, maybe we could have 1 or 2 stock classes that use PAX to even the cars out? Let’s say you had all the stock FWD together. The SC Minis would compete against my civic and we would use our DS and GS pax numbers within the FWD stock class. I know PAX sux but that’s a whole other discussion.
• Do an analysis of all the jobs that we do at an event and see if we can streamline them or add as needed. I only say this because many of the jobs and way we do things were created when we were running bigger events.
• Get the vinyl FAQ sheet for the side of the bus. I think this would help streamline the main drivers meeting.
• Think about how we can add value to all the time you spend at an autocross? I don’t have a good answer to this but outside the 4 or 5 minutes you spend driving, what is fun about being at an autocross? How do we “deliver” that fun to the new folks and even folks who have been with us awhile.

Rallycross.
• From what I’ve seen since returning to the club meetings, we need to look at the financial viability of the rallycross program. I was in the leadership of the club when this program started and at the time it ran pretty close to break even and sometimes lost a few dollars per event. At the time we decided this was acceptable because the autocross program was flush with cash and we felt it was ok to support other members in pursuing their chosen form of motorsports as long as it wasn’t costing a lot of money. With lower attendance at both the rallycross and autocross events this put a lot of pressure on that model. To improve the rallycross attendance I have a couple of suggestions.
o Reduce the season from 8 to 4 events.
o Make rallycross a “winter” sport and run the season in the cooler months. This would allow the program to pull attendees from those who dedicate their Summers to autocross.
o Run some “tarmac” events in on the same site as an autocross to get double use out of the insurance and site rentals fees.
o In a utopian world. Find a site that we could run a dirt rallycross and a regular tarmac autocross on the same site/day to save money.

If you're still reading I'm impressed. Thanks for your attention.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on improving the club?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:07 pm 
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Shawn is a genius.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on improving the club?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:53 pm 
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Karl Shultz wrote:
Shawn is a genius.


I'll second that... every single idea was spot on.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on improving the club?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:31 pm 
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Shawn for President! again!

I'm still reading through this. That's a lot to implement. Might be good for the next prez 8) .

Response is coming....

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on improving the club?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:34 pm 
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shawnwhipple wrote:
While it’s always nice to get a trophy it’s kinda pointless to win a class of one. I blame the SCCA for this since they seem to keep adding classes. Honestly it seems like the number of classes has doubled...


While I guess it's nice to have a lots of refrigerator magnets with little orange cones on them, what happened to bumping? Partially due to the proliferation of classes and partly because people have lost sight of the One True Autocross Class, I haven't had any competition all year. I need something to help justify the Hoosiers.

There was a time when trophies were kind of expensive and the club was broke, so we tried to limit the number we gave out. Bumping helped in that regard by combining classes. We also had limits on how many trophies could be given out for an individual or combined class at an event. For example, if there only 2 or 3 entries, there would be one trophy awarded. If you won a trophy you were given the appropriate wooden Nth place plaque, and you stuck your event dash plaque to it. For year-end points, you reverted to your regular class for trophies, and we allowed trophies for classes with one only entrant.

That was then and this is now. Maybe we should just award little orange cone icons on Facebook.....

Anyway, here's the bumping order from the SCCA Solo II rulebook:

STOCK CATEGORY
FS→BS
HS→GS→DS→ES→CS→BS→AS→SS→Street Prepared class for car as appropriate

STREET TOURING CATEGORY
STF→STC→STS→STR→STX→STU→Street Prepared class for car as appropriate

STREET PREPARED CATEGORY
ESP→BSP→ASP
FSP→DSP→CSP→ASP→Street Modified class for car as appropriate

STREET MODIFIED CATEGORY
SMF→SM→SSM→XP or other Prepared class for car as appropriate

PREPARED CATEGORY
CP→XP
FP→XP
GP→DP→EP→XP→EM or DM class for car as appropriate

MODIFIED CATEGORY
EM→DM→CM
FM→CM→BM→AM

KART CATEGORY
KM→BM

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on improving the club?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:45 pm 
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My stiffness is only an illusion
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Arthur McDonald wrote:
shawnwhipple wrote:
While it’s always nice to get a trophy it’s kinda pointless to win a class of one. I blame the SCCA for this since they seem to keep adding classes. Honestly it seems like the number of classes has doubled...


While I guess it's nice to have a lots of refrigerator magnets with little orange cones on them, what happened to bumping? Partially due to the proliferation of classes and partly because people have lost sight of the One True Autocross Class, I haven't had any competition all year. I need something to help justify the Hoosiers.

There was a time when trophies were kind of expensive and the club was broke, so we tried to limit the number we gave out. Bumping helped in that regard by combining classes. We also had limits on how many trophies could be given out for an individual or combined class at an event. For example, if there only 2 or 3 entries, there would be one trophy awarded. If you won a trophy you were given the appropriate wooden Nth place plaque, and you stuck your event dash plaque to it. For year-end points, you reverted to your regular class for trophies, and we allowed trophies for classes with one only entrant.

That was then and this is now. Maybe we should just award little orange cone icons on Facebook.....

Anyway, here's the bumping order from the SCCA Solo II rulebook:

STOCK CATEGORY
FS→BS
HS→GS→DS→ES→CS→BS→AS→SS→Street Prepared class for car as appropriate

STREET TOURING CATEGORY
STF→STC→STS→STR→STX→STU→Street Prepared class for car as appropriate

STREET PREPARED CATEGORY
ESP→BSP→ASP
FSP→DSP→CSP→ASP→Street Modified class for car as appropriate

STREET MODIFIED CATEGORY
SMF→SM→SSM→XP or other Prepared class for car as appropriate

PREPARED CATEGORY
CP→XP
FP→XP
GP→DP→EP→XP→EM or DM class for car as appropriate

MODIFIED CATEGORY
EM→DM→CM
FM→CM→BM→AM

KART CATEGORY
KM→BM


I am a fan of this idea as we used to do this in the past. Is this something that AXware can handle? I agree w/ Art, a class of 1 is no fun and there's one to push you.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on improving the club?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:47 am 
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Arthur McDonald wrote:
what happened to bumping?


I'm with you. My first 3 years running with SCCA in my ESP Firebird, it was rare that I didn't get bumped. I didn't mind and I prefered having someone (anyone) to run with. I've been using events this year to shakedown the Mazda in hopes of avoiding breakdowns at VIR and it has been fun albiet lonely in F-Prepared. Once I feel the Mazda is set, I'll be back in F-stock with the Bullitt. :D

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