THSCC Forums

don't forget cheaper, the same (ford) truck with a v10 is usually a couple thousand dollars less than its psd equivalent and will probably have fewer miles on the clock.

while this may be a isolated issue.........

http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f16 ... ut-235357/

and there is this..........

http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f16 ... ng-230527/

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BenchWarmer Motorsports

another one of those damn LeMons heads

just another Chump

we are an Autocross Club Dammit............

Steve Hoelscher, owned a transmission shop for years, has posted a lot of comparative info on various towing thread on SCCAForums.

Here is an example:

http://sccaforums.com/forums/1/386668/ShowThread.aspx

Overall, he like Fords for relative reliability, especially of automatic transmissions.

Nice Pros/Cons from one of the posts:

Chevy, Dodge or Ford: As you will find from reading the responses and looking around the various forums, each has its strengths and weaknesses. Dodges typically get the best mileage. Chevy (duramax) has the most power and Ford the best quality/reliability. Having driven several examples of all three, I like the Fords for driveability, handling, ride and comfort.

Auto vs Manual: Lots of people will tell you the manuals are more reliable and cheaper to live with. This isn't exactly true. Dodges has as much trouble with their manuals as automatics. And typically, the manuals were more expensive to rebuild. Add to that the cost of a clutch every 100+K miles and note that clutches for these trucks aren't cheap. Ford's ZF is a good unit as is the GM NV but they don't last forever. The later Dodge autos aren't bad and there are any number of upgrades out there. The Ford 4 speed and Torqueshift are good units as is the Allison in the Chevy. And an important note about the Allison. People are finding out that the Allison isn't as strong as they may have been lead to believe. I have seen a number of chipped trucks kill their Allisons towing modest loads with a heavy foot.

An important point about the auto/manual decision. 20 years ago I wouldn't have considered towing with an auto, now I really wouldn't want to tow without one. Modern automatics are excellent and give nothing away to manuals. Modern autos, 4 - 5 or 6 speeds, with modern locking torque converters get just as good, or better, mileage than manuals and are much easier to live with.

2 or 4 wheel drive: Unless you need 4wd for snow or off road, its unnacessary for towing. 4wd adds cost, weight and complexity to the driveline. A transfer case overhaul is nearly as expensive as a transmission overhaul. Plus, you have the additional driveshaft, CV joints and front drive axle and diff to maintain. And if gas mileage is your goal, 4wd is heavier and adds innertia to the driveline, all of which lowers mileage.

At what mileage do you start looking at repairs: Of course that depends on how the truck was maintained. Most any modern truck, with reasonable maintenance, will run 100 to 150K miles with little beyond normal maintenance. At that point, things like alternators, starters, radiators, hoses, injector pumps, clutches, transmissions, etc... begin to start going. But a well maintained truck may go to 200K without much issue. The engines on all of them are likely to go 300+K miles without too many issues. The gas motor in my van just passed 290,000 miles, most of which are towing, and its still strong and reliable.

Advantages gas/diesel: Diesels typically get better mileage, especially towing. But diesels are more expensive to operate (fuel filters, water separators, oil changes, coolant changes, etc... are all more frequent and more expensive. And with the price of diesel running higher than gasoline, the cost of operation (dollar per mile) might actually be closer than you think. Add to that the higher purchase cost of the diesel truck and you will need to run it considerably longer to realize the savings. So power is likely the major difference and there the diesel has the edge.

Ford F250/350s with 6.8 liter V10s are cheap by comparison to their diesel brothers and tow nearly as well. Mileage will be less but not huge. So if you amortize the cost to buy, maintain and opperate the V10 gas truck to any of the diesels you may find that over the life of the truck the costs may not be that different. Its worth considering.


Dick

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

when i was picking up my new trailer a couple of weeks ago i took a look around the parking lot. there were at least a dozen trucks, every single one a ford. no gm, no dodge.

Mike,

not sure about the idea that the 7.3 Powerstroke is "more mechanically complex, fewer club members capable of maintaining".


While it IS a bit different than a gas engine, it's not any more complex or hard to work on. There are enough of them out there that most of the "usual problems" are pretty well understood + documented.


I think it's probably a toss-up between the 2 (V10 or PSD) for this club's purposes, but I am personally a little more partial to the PSD.

What's the likelihood that we'd have club members working on engine internals anyway? In EITHER case?

But I gotta say, with so many people hot rodding those PSDs, they are probably better documented for the DIY type than even most of the more modern gas V8s. Shoot, the girl who cleans stalls in our barn on the weekends drives a big 4x4 with a PSD that outruns stock C5 Corvettes. Her brother drag races them and has for several years now, and so he built her a "driver."

I think there are so many V10 Class C motorhomes because of that intercooler packaging problem with the E series body, personally. From everyone I've talked to who has driven both, the PSD still wins when compared apples to apples (both in an F series so the PSD has the bigger intercooler).


--Donnie

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My Blog

stupid question, but why not rebuild/upgrade what we have? wouldent that be cheaper than a new bus + the cost of fixing what is broken or soon to be (why else would they be getting rid of it) + the prep costs of a new bus?

or is towing just REALLY that chalenging with the current bus?

Dustin and I talked about this at length in a very logical manner. It comes down to one thing really:

The current bus is a handful to drive, and not a pleasant experience, and apparently we're having trouble getting people to volunteer. From what I understand some people who have driven the bus once are not willing to do it again.

The reasons for this as I see it are the following:

1. AC sucks
2. Long rear overhang + short wheelbase makes for stability issues
3. Worn out and low-duty front end exacerbates the stability
4. Power is barely adequate but makes maneuvering at speed sketchy
5. Trans appears to be failing (but has been appearing to be failing for 3+ years now)

I think the benefit to the club of a newer, and better-to-drive vehicle are this:

1. Possibly lower maintenance cost
2. Nicer to drive = more people willing
3. Possibly more reliable (although the current bus has not let us down, mechanically, yet AFAIK)

Since the club has the money, and the current problem of not always finding people lining up to being the bus to the events, I think it is time to address the 5 reasons that we are having the problems.

As a side note, the current bus was bought as an experiment, a 5-year plan knowing that it may not be ideal. It was only $3400. The trailer was built with a "20 year" use goal, and I still think it will make it. I think the next bus should be a "10 year" vehicle and we shouldn't compromise much. But I'm cheap and a deal shopper so we'll see what comes along

I am worried about the trans failing this year. Ideally we need to sell the current bus running in good shape. It will be a shame if we need to do a $4k or whatever repair while shopping for a replacement...

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

I have nothing against older tow vehicles. Ours is a 22 year old Dodge 360 Camper Van that we just dumped a huge amount of work and money into to rehab.

However, given the "10 year" use life goal, is a 7.3 PS chassis, AC, etc. going to be too worn out? When was the last production year for 7.3 PS vehicles? Would a "low mileage" one (if they exist) have too many "it hasn't been run, nasty stuff happens" problems?

Given Donnie's generator goal, a gasoline genset pulling fuel from a gasoline main gas tank is very convenient. Plus a gasoline genset is less expensive (I think).

I'm assuming a Bus, not a gutted smaller class C RV. I don't know about the relative upper body strength of buses versus class C's. RV's usually have gensets and awnings

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Allow me to toss out an idea that could make several folks happy. Could we consider a rollback car carrier equipped with a tow hitch? To provide comfort for timing and scoring we could erect a single steel hoop along one side of the car platform and install (dare I say it?) and awning that extends over the platform, with side curtains for inclement weather. To go one further, the opposite side of the same hoop could sport yet another awning for the sign-up table.
This would allow the "bus" driver to bring their own car plus the trailer. The major drawback to this (in my opinion) is that rollback trucks are "work trucks" and may cost a little more for a decent truck.
Charlie Guthrie

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1998 BMW Z3
1987 BMW 325is
2000 BMW
1996 F250 Turbo Diesel

For the record, the powers that be are not going to be buying a genset or, gasp, a genset equipped vehicle because *I* want one. The powers that be don't want to maintain one and prefer to maintain the type of system we've had, so that's what we're gonna get. Which is fine.

The only reason Class C RVs have been thrown into this thread, that I know if, is because that's the predominant place you see the V10 in relatively similar use to what the club wants. It's simply for reference on the platform, however, as I don't think anyone is seriously contemplating an RV for this purpose. At least I hope not.

The shuttle bus market is where it's at for what the club needs, though we can obviously learn from the possible previous mistakes and get one that will tow better. I believe that a diesel should be all that's considered for this, personally, and the PSD is the MINIMUM amount of diesel engine. Unfortunately, it's REALLY hard to find something with any bigger engine, so that's the one logical choice, IMHO.

I do think it would be *awesome* if we had a solution that would allow whoever was driving the bus to also haul their car. The problem with that is the 20 year plan on the trailer. I think the only sane way to solve the car hauling problem is to give up on the current trailer and figure out a solution that allowed for both. But if that's not in the cards (and I don't think it is), then upgrading the two vehicle is what we'll have to do. If it were in the cards then we could consider a whole list of vehicles that would work better as JUST a truck to pull a trailer that was a little larger and said trailer could become the T&S shop where you'd haul a car and the rest of the trailer would hold the "stuff."

One option to consider for the truck is a straight-truck. Add a bunch of windows to it and a set of steps and you're golden. It'll have a bigger diesel and awesome towing capability. They can be had fairly cheap, too, these days.


--Donnie

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My Blog

Notwithstanding the other arguements, I don't think that "more people would be willing to drive" should be considered. I don't think the bus's instability to be that big a factor in recruitment, we have a declining number of people who are willing to do anything other than show up and drive and work, (well sometimes work)

The only caveat to the above in my mind is Charlie's issue with getting the driver's car to the event. If they are not close and/or have a two driver car, they are forced to borrow one.

what was the budget again?

http://www.racingjunk.com/category/48/T ... ailer.html

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'11 RallyX VP
1998 Integra Type R - track fun
1999 Subaru 2.5RS - dirt fun

Really? To me that was the best reason. But that's assuming it's that the bus really is "that bad" and people aren't just using the annoyance as an excuse. Sounds like if people drove it once and refuse to do it again that are the people that are otherwise volunteering to work, well, we have a problem that needs to be addressed.

If it's really just apathy, well, then perhaps an event needs to be canceled due to a lack of a bus driver. That'll get people motivated.


--Donnie

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My Blog

What is the budget?

Could a "Toy Hauler" be used and then there wouldn't be a trailer and there would be space for the driver's car?

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Marty Howard
2011 NASA SE Factory Five Challenge Champion
Track Events Logistics Coordinator - TZC/THSCC
2007 Factory Five Challenge Car.
http://www.mh-motorsports.com